Join Ash and Katie as they dig into how they take their first drafts to the next level, and why trust is so important in the revision process. Plus, find out the newest and somewhat perplexing toy craze in Ash's household, and how the Real Housewives gave Katie this episode's title. They also both complain about writing braided novels.

Find Ash's work and sign up for her newsletter at https://ashsmash.com/

Find Katie's work and signs up for her newsletter at https://www.kmveohongs.com/

Find Sid Jain, who wrote our theme music, at