What if the systems we've built our lives around aren't simply breaking down? What if they're dissolving, making space for something new to emerge?

Topher Wilkins has spent over twenty years creating conditions in which changemakers find each other, trust each other, and build something together. In this conversation with Amel, he explores what that actually takes; not conferences, not networking, but human beings in circle, being real with each other.

The image at the heart of it: when a caterpillar enters its cocoon, it doesn't grow wings. It dissolves completely into cellular soup. In that dissolution, tiny liminal cells carrying the blueprint for the butterfly find each other. Only then does something new begin to form.

Topher thinks we're in that moment now. The question he leaves every listener with: which liminal cell are ...