A cyber attack on Jaguar Land Rover last year cost the British economy £2 billion. Had a Russian drone bombed a British oil refinery at a fraction of that damage, NATO would have invoked Article 5. But because a cyber attack isn't kinetic, it doesn't count. That gap between how much damage hostile states can do and what states are prepared to call an "act of war" is now the cheapest, fastest exploit in so-called "hybrid" warfare, and the hackers conducting these attacks are often teenagers. What happens when hostile states can recruit the world's most capable hackers faster than western democracies? And why are democracies moving so slowly to recognize and deploy ethical hacking?

In this episode, Paul Saunders speaks with Fergus Hay, the CEO and Co-Founder of The Hacking Games, a platform that is reshaping the future of cyber talent by redi ...