Today's guest was one of the groups of people at the birth of Safety differently working with Sydney Dekker but the thing that I like about this is that work he does at the business he is Managing Director at, the Art of Work, they do the do. It's not about talking about it is about doing it. I wanted to get as many examples of how we implement Safety differently Safety 2 etc into our workplaces and to days guest has so much experience in this. So today's guest is Kelvin Gen calling in from Australia to help us understand the practicalities of Safety differently.