Thirteen Indian states now have anti conversion laws, and Reverend Samuel says the pastors, home churches and families caught under them have almost no way of being heard outside the country. He joins Bernadette to walk through the cases he has documented, from a dismissed army officer to church raids, arrests and killings, and to explain why he believes the courts, the police and the media no longer act independently of the BJP government. It is a heavy conversation, and one worth sitting with.