Most pastors don’t start ministry wanting to build a machine.

But somewhere along the way, it’s easy for church leadership to become more about growth, performance, numbers, platforms, and pressure… than actually making disciples.

In this conversation with JonMark Baker from the Minor Prophets podcast, we talk honestly about:

• Shepherds vs CEOs in the church

• When church goals become unhealthy

• Why discipleship often gets replaced by performance

• The danger of building ministry identity instead of Christ-centered identity

• How pastors can check their hearts before burnout or pride takes over

This wasn’t a “call-out” conversation, but more of a heart check for all of us.

If you’re in ministry, leading volunteers, serving in church, or just wrestling with what healthy leadership actually lo ...