Pamela Madsen is a somatic wellness educator and founder of Back to the Body, a series of immersive retreats where women explore touch, pleasure and embodiment in a safe, structured space. Before this work, she was a nationally known fertility advocate and founding executive director of the American Fertility Association, where she coined the term "biological clock." Her memoir, Shameless, tells the story of a married mother who, decades into her marriage, went looking for a more honest relationship with her own desire.

Pamela and Andrew talk about the boredom, not brokenness, that started her own search for something more after more than two decades of marriage, why touch work is often the missing piece talk therapy alone can't reach, what many men misunderstand about women's pleasure, and why she believes desire doesn't have to fade with  ...