Leading by example. It sounds obvious but in practice it is often more difficult than it seems. Above all, the influence of a role model function is often underestimated. How do you handle this within your organization? And what is the role of the government? To answer those questions, this episode's guests are: Member of the Dutch Parliament and vice-chairman of the Digital Affairs Committee Hind Dekker-Abdulaziz and Co-founder of Awareways Geertje Veenbergen.